pinoyatheist
Welcome to a pinoy atheist's point of view.
Foreknowledge, Lucifer , Flood and Sin
bibleNote: The article is written in Pilipino language but I provided some translations to English.
Christians believes that God has a foreknowledge. But such belief gives the god-concept some problems, especially on the issues concerning Satan and sin.
Christians believes that God has a foreknowledge. But such belief gives the god-concept some problems, especially on the issues concerning Satan and sin.
What is foreknowledge ?: Foreknowledge means precognition: knowledge of an event before it occurs.Now if God has a foreknowledge as you claim, then He already knows what will happened if he didin't pardon Lucifer on his crime of rebellion. If God is suppose to be all-good,forgiveness and reconciliation is not a problem.
[Christians]: satan's rebellion against God is open, wilful resistance to and defiance of his authority. kahit anong convince ang ama kung stuborn ang anak wala magagawa... wala din sya magagawa na iposponed o itigil yung ipapataw na parusa na nararapat sa anak. [SUMA] Ang isang omnipotent, omniscient being walang magagawa?????( Now this is a little bit strange. An omniscient, omnipotent being can't do anything to stop Lucifer from sinning according to this Christian? ) Bago yan ah! Sabi nga ni Gandhi, "The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong." Does that tell me your god is weak? [Christians] God is not only a merciful God He's also a just God. He execute judgement para dun sa gumawa ng mali at di nagsisisi... tungkol naman kay Lucifer, para sa akin He extend His mercy para sa kanya. pro kung ang tao rebelious dina magbabago yun, unless he change his mind and asked forgiveness... i think satan did not change. kaya nga sya naging devil.
[John the Atheist] Yan ang problem ng mythology na yan, kailangan may kontrabida para may bida (lol). It still doesn't answer the problem. First it is said na may foreknowledge ang god-concept. With his forknowledge, alam nya na Lucifer will become Satan. ( If God has the ability of foreknowledge, why did he never took a good look at the problem concerning Lucifer? If you are a guy with the ability of foreknowledge, you are a step ahead with Lucifer, right? So why did God allow it to happened if he already know what will happened? Christian says that God loves his creation. Is so, it is very important to God that his "prefect creation" will not fall. He has the atribute of being all-powerful and all-knowing, yet he allow Satan to exist? That's is quite strange.)
a.) Being omnipotent, atleast dapat may plan na sya ahead. Kasi alam nya na na Lucifer will become Satan.
b.) Alam nya na (because of his foreknowledge) na si Satan ang magiging cause ng "fall" ng creation nya. Being a perfect God (as what Christian believers believe) dapat may "perfect plan" na sya. Kasi noong araw wala pang mga magagaling at "Oscar winning" script writers kaya di nila napag-aralan ang plot ng story nila (hehehe!)
[Christians] Satan's rebellion against God is open, wilful resistance to and defiance of his authority. kahit anong convince ang ama kung stuborn ang anak wala magagawa... wala din sya magagawa na iposponed o itigil yung ipapataw na parusa na nararapat sa anak.
[John the Atheist] Eeeeeeeeeekkkk! Wrong analogy. We are not talking of mere humans here, bub! We are talking of an omnipotent, omniscient, supreme being. It is unacceptable to rationalized that an "omni-omni" being has exhausted its resources. ( Suppose I have all the divine attribute of a god. Do you think I cannot even have the way to discipline my son? I thought God is suppose to be omnipotent?) Tandaan mo, diyos yan hindi tao yan. How on earth (or heaven) na naubusan yan ng paraan at wala ng nagawa? Nakupo, lalo na kung may foreknowledge yan, di dapat alam nya na kay Lucifer masisira ang "perfect" creation nya. Natural na dapat mas ginalingan nya effort nya (being an omniscient and an omnipotent being.) (If God is supposed to have a foreknowledge and is omnipotent and omniscient, then it was easy for him to device a "perfect" plan that stop Lucifer from sinning, especially if God knows that because of Lucifer, his creations will fall.)
On the issue of the "flood".
[Christians] di lng isang ark ang lumulutang sa flood noon.. madami sana. sa tingin ko di nagkulang ang Dyos sa pag bigay ng warning para sa mga tao pag dating ng flood.The Flood is also an act of mercy...why? "because taking away their earthly existance He prevent them from entailing their sin (tru their examples) upon their posterity and degenerating them, and also prevent them from committing further acts of wickedness."
[John the Atheist] Again it contradicts the issue of foreknowledge and all-good. If God has a foreknowledge, alam nya na magyayari yan. So dapat nag isip-isip muna sya. Dapat he cut the root of evil, which is Lucifer becoming Satan. Also, isipin mo lang mabuti ha, did the flood do anything to eradicate evil. Kasi dapat di nya na pinadala ang anak nya dito sa mundo para gawing sacrificial lamb sa cross. (I think this God is not a good planner. If he intentionally made a flood to destroy mankind so that evil will be stopped, why did it come to a time that he need to send his own son to be sacrifies for the sin of the world? Does that mean evil wasn't eradicated in the flood? If so, then why did this "uber-being" with the power of foreknowledge and said to be omnipotent and omniscient, failed to contain evil during Noah's time? If He really intended to get rid of wickedness in this world, with all powers He have, why did He not started to cut the root of evil itself, which is Satan. Maybe by asking Lucifer why he want to rebel and fixed everything up , Lucifer didn't become Satan and there will be no evil in the first place. )
[John the Atheist] Yan ang problem ng mythology na yan, kailangan may kontrabida para may bida (lol). It still doesn't answer the problem. First it is said na may foreknowledge ang god-concept. With his forknowledge, alam nya na Lucifer will become Satan. ( If God has the ability of foreknowledge, why did he never took a good look at the problem concerning Lucifer? If you are a guy with the ability of foreknowledge, you are a step ahead with Lucifer, right? So why did God allow it to happened if he already know what will happened? Christian says that God loves his creation. Is so, it is very important to God that his "prefect creation" will not fall. He has the atribute of being all-powerful and all-knowing, yet he allow Satan to exist? That's is quite strange.)
a.) Being omnipotent, atleast dapat may plan na sya ahead. Kasi alam nya na na Lucifer will become Satan.
b.) Alam nya na (because of his foreknowledge) na si Satan ang magiging cause ng "fall" ng creation nya. Being a perfect God (as what Christian believers believe) dapat may "perfect plan" na sya. Kasi noong araw wala pang mga magagaling at "Oscar winning" script writers kaya di nila napag-aralan ang plot ng story nila (hehehe!)
[Christians] Satan's rebellion against God is open, wilful resistance to and defiance of his authority. kahit anong convince ang ama kung stuborn ang anak wala magagawa... wala din sya magagawa na iposponed o itigil yung ipapataw na parusa na nararapat sa anak.
[John the Atheist] Eeeeeeeeeekkkk! Wrong analogy. We are not talking of mere humans here, bub! We are talking of an omnipotent, omniscient, supreme being. It is unacceptable to rationalized that an "omni-omni" being has exhausted its resources. ( Suppose I have all the divine attribute of a god. Do you think I cannot even have the way to discipline my son? I thought God is suppose to be omnipotent?) Tandaan mo, diyos yan hindi tao yan. How on earth (or heaven) na naubusan yan ng paraan at wala ng nagawa? Nakupo, lalo na kung may foreknowledge yan, di dapat alam nya na kay Lucifer masisira ang "perfect" creation nya. Natural na dapat mas ginalingan nya effort nya (being an omniscient and an omnipotent being.) (If God is supposed to have a foreknowledge and is omnipotent and omniscient, then it was easy for him to device a "perfect" plan that stop Lucifer from sinning, especially if God knows that because of Lucifer, his creations will fall.)
On the issue of the "flood".
[Christians] di lng isang ark ang lumulutang sa flood noon.. madami sana. sa tingin ko di nagkulang ang Dyos sa pag bigay ng warning para sa mga tao pag dating ng flood.The Flood is also an act of mercy...why? "because taking away their earthly existance He prevent them from entailing their sin (tru their examples) upon their posterity and degenerating them, and also prevent them from committing further acts of wickedness."
[John the Atheist] Again it contradicts the issue of foreknowledge and all-good. If God has a foreknowledge, alam nya na magyayari yan. So dapat nag isip-isip muna sya. Dapat he cut the root of evil, which is Lucifer becoming Satan. Also, isipin mo lang mabuti ha, did the flood do anything to eradicate evil. Kasi dapat di nya na pinadala ang anak nya dito sa mundo para gawing sacrificial lamb sa cross. (I think this God is not a good planner. If he intentionally made a flood to destroy mankind so that evil will be stopped, why did it come to a time that he need to send his own son to be sacrifies for the sin of the world? Does that mean evil wasn't eradicated in the flood? If so, then why did this "uber-being" with the power of foreknowledge and said to be omnipotent and omniscient, failed to contain evil during Noah's time? If He really intended to get rid of wickedness in this world, with all powers He have, why did He not started to cut the root of evil itself, which is Satan. Maybe by asking Lucifer why he want to rebel and fixed everything up , Lucifer didn't become Satan and there will be no evil in the first place. )
Dapat sa time pa lang ni Noah, wala ng wickedness. Ibig sabihin, the flood did nothing to stop human wickedness (So much for God's omniscience eh?) Now, destruction na lang ba ang way to educate people. An all-good, all-powerful god can create terrible nightmare to send people warning. He can send angels or at best suguro he can come down to earth himself at sabihan ang mga tao, kaysa tago sya ng tago sa ulap. Eh kaya nya ng kausapin si Noah, is it more better if he talk to the people himself. Now kung sasabihin mo nanaman na wala itong magagawa, eh bakit pa naging diyos yang tanga na yan? (If God is said to be all-good and all-powerful, He can easily solve this dilemma. He can send dreams or nightmares to warn people on thier wickedness. He can also show himself and talk to the people Himself. If he can talk to Noah and order him to built a boat, why not talk to every human soul on Earth and tell them he's not please on what he saw. I think that's the most humane plan an "all-good" god can do that hide himself on the clouds.)
There are many ideas a mere person can contribute for the benefit of mankind, why is it too imposible to an omnisient being with the power of foreknowldge?
There are many ideas a mere person can contribute for the benefit of mankind, why is it too imposible to an omnisient being with the power of foreknowldge?
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